From:      Brian Eck <eck@syl.nj.nec.com>
Date:      Fri, 3 Feb 1995 12:36:56 -0500


hi all, here's a more readable form of the interview that Sietse posted
recently...enjoy...

brian

---cut here---

Mark E. Smith interview, early '91 (after the release of 'Shiftwork')


How has the past year been for you?

"It's been getting better."

Do you worry about the commercial succes of the band?

"Yeah I was very worried, yeah. About November, yeah. But ehm.. it was
good because eh.. it did well, this last LP. For us. Especially
abroad. I was very worried, you know. About January I was like
that.. (gesture) I didn't think a lot of people would accept the LP
for what it was. But it did well in England even, so..."

Why wouldn't they accept it like it was?

"People get used to The Fall, you know. Take it for granted,
almost. So it's good to generate a new following and all that, you
know. We're not using any hype either, we're not using any singles or
posters or anything like that, so it's working. We're really glad it
did."

Was it a conscious decision not to use singles...

"Sort of, yeah. It was a conscious decision to sort of release it in
Europe first, which we did. In Germany and Holland."

I read somewhere that you said 'this has to be the one to really get
on top of it'.

"Yeah. I was also worried because I'd stripped the band down from six
to four. I was wondering how people would take that - you know, no
keyboard, no..."

But there were keyboards on the album...

"Oh yeah, for sure, yeah. But I mean... It sounds a lot better to me
as a four-piece, it was a conscious decision to strip it down."

How do you feel about recognition of your work, do you think you get
enough?

"Yeah, yeah.  I don't really like a lot of limelight, you know. A lot
of tension, I think. I've always thought that. It's when you go on TV
and all that.. People always comin' at you. Strange thing, TV is
horrible, you know, the video thing and all that shit. Surprised how
powerful it is, it's ridiculous."

You've been on the cover of the NME dozens of times. You didn't really
like that?

"It's good, I mean, you've got to have it, you know. But eh, the media
in Britain is very powerful at the moment, always has been."

Do you think people understand enough of what you do?

"No, never have. It's always misinterpreted I think."

But did you set out to make something that should be understood?

"No, I don't think it should be asked for. I don't think it should be
automatically made clear. I don't agree with that."

On the new album the lyrics seem to be more accessible. Was that a
conscious decision?

"No, eh, a quarter of it was improvised, actually, on the spot. With
stripping the band down, I can work more on a thought level with
them. But I've always been trying to get me lyrics not simpler, but
more straight to the point, really. It's not like a c ommercial aim,
it's more like getting it [with?] less verbiage."

Just the essence.

"Yeah. In the past I think I tended to ramble on a bit. Where now I'd
just take the good lines out of it, you know. I don't think they're
particularly accessible, actually, but... The titles are very cut 'n'
clear."

It sometimes seems to be clear what the song is about. I don't know if
there's a double layer...

"Exactly. ... There were a lot of complaints, in England, you know,
'the titles are very boring'. It wasn't 'esoteric' enough, which I
think is good. You know, 'A Lot Of Wind' is about a lot of wind, you
know. 'The Book Of Lies' is about lies."

'Edinburgh Man' is...

"About Edinburgh, yeah. (laughing)"

People were used to song titles which didn't...

"Yeah, that were esoteric, yeah."

Does it take a lot of hard work now, to strip the lyrics down?

"Yeah, it does, it takes a lot more time, but it's good."

I read that 'Edinburgh Man' took a long time.

"Yeah. That was more on the musical end, actually. I just wanted a
song that changed three or four times within it. Like a landscape..."

Do you ever look back on your life and think of 'what have I achieved,
and what did I want to achieve'?

"Yeah, all the time, yeah. A continual thought, that."

What comes out of it?

"(pause) Nothin' really. (laughs) I've got no money. (laughing) But
I've acquitted myself. I can sleep at night. ...Well I can't, (laughs)
but I can rest easy with my conscience, you know."

Are you satisfied, in general?

"No, never. Never have been. I'm always a bit, you know,
dissatisfied. Not with... Just with things in general. I think that's
a lot what keeps me writing. I don't mean the environment or anything,
I mean, the way things go, you know. Keeps me going, in a
 ironic sort of way."

Can you pinpoint it down to certain things which you're dissatisfied
about?

"(hesitating) I don't know, eh.. I always believe in the old saying,
you know, 'people are hell', you know, other people are
hell. (laughing) Otherwise I'm okay. I get on with people
okay. But... People always let you down, people always let themselves
do wn, I think. People always sell out. Nothing you can do about it,
really. Except write about it."

People have said that about you, old fans. About you selling out.

"Nah. No way. I don't think so. Why, do you think so?"

No.

"You get that a lot. But the thing is, I've had that sort of complaint
since 1982. 'You've sold out.' We haven't sold out at all. And what if
we did, it wouldn't matter I don't think. All that's important to me
is the message, what I'm doing, the writing,
 the lyrics... And the music. Sounds like an old cliche but it's
true. I do get pissed off a lot. Like last October I wanted to finish
it, you know. Get a real job."

What kind of job?

"Office job. Or on the buses, something like that. Printin'. I could
do that shit. Plumbin', can do that. Earn more money probably as
well. (laughing)"

But would you like a job like that?

"No, but I could do it. Sometimes I need the peace, you know. 'Cause
with a thing like The Fall, you know, you can't really leave it to
anybody else. 'Cause if you do, you just end up like every other
group, you know, single, video, blah blah blah. Someti mes it's hard
to keep track of it. Sometimes I wish I could just fuckin' go off at
five o' clock, or fuckin' leave it out. I'm not complaining, I have a
good life."

But you are 'Mark E. Smith' all of the time. That's hard, sometimes?

"Nah. Hard for other people."

How do you look back on the old albums, do you listen to them at all?

"Not very much. Sometimes."

Do you ever consider playing the old songs again?

"No, 'cause I think that's when you get in a rut, really, I don't
wanna do that. I don't wanna get stuck like that. I mean, it holds us
back a lot, you know, we could go out and do old songs, but I think
it's daft. Especially when you're changing the grou p all the time,
like I do, you can't do it. It's not fair. It's not fair on me, it's
not fair on the band, it's not fair on the audience, is it. It's not
honest."

Some people do expect to hear them.

"Of course they do, I understand that, yeah. But... they've got the
records, I mean..."

If you look back on the type of person you were when you started, do
you think you've changed a lot?

"Yeah."

In what ways?

"(thinks for a while) Well, I don't know, not really, I haven't really
changed much. If you compare it to a lot of other people, I haven't
changed a lot. I still get mad about things, still lose me temper a
lot. Still dress the same. Still think the same."

A lot of people change through the system, the business.

"If anything I'm nastier actually, with business people. I'm a lot
nastier. I'm vicious with them."

Can you afford to be as nasty as you want to?

"No. But I think it's important to do it. You lose a lot of promotion,
you lose a lot of business friends and that, but I think it's
important. Otherwise it's not worth doing. If you end up like, you
know, REM or James, I think it's... They're sort of lik e a little
corporate business. And good for them, but I think you've always got
to be aware of that. But I run a very disciplined structure, so we've
always been strong to the outside world, you know. All the group is
very loyal. They stick by me, and thi ngs like that. We're usually on
time for everything. We don't sort of 'rock out', so to speak, you
know. I'm very tight on things like groupies and things, I'll not have
any of that shit. Get me drift? It's good, it's worked good. I
couldn't have done it without Craig and Steve, though, the guitarist
and the bass player, they're very disciplined people."

Do you still get on with them as well as when they came in the band?

"Yeah. Better now, actually. We sort of keep our space, you know."

You don't see them outside the band a lot?

"No, not really, no. I do go and see them, but not socially. It's
good, though, they've got wives and children, it's good. Solidifies
them. Whereas I'm pretty maverick, you know, I'm just very
pushy. Singular."

How do you think growing older has affected you?

"I think the songs are getting a lot more mature, yeah. It's more
appealing to an adult... I've always wanted to do that, from the
start, even when I was nineteen, I wanted to appeal to a mature
thought. As opposed to decadence and teenage angst. I've alw ays
wanted to appeal to an intelligent sort of listener."

People said in the beginning that you came across older than you were.

"Hmm. Wise before me time, yeah. Very much. I agree."

You think lately you've succeeded more in making mature songs?

"You see, you've got rock music where... music either appeals to
teenagers or it appeals to older people, like Chris Rea. It's like,
Chris Rea *or*... EMF, you know. There's no middle ground. There is a
middle ground to be found there."

But you never thought rock & roll was something for teenagers?

"No, I never look at it like that. I look at it as a form of getting
my writing over, always have. I think age is quite irrelevant,
really. I mean, the band is still very young, you know,
still. Twenty-five."

The rock & roll you like to listen to, isn't that teenage music?

"No, not at all. I like all sorts of stuff. I listen to Gene Vincent,
and stuff like that. Henry Cow. I keep me mind open, I think. What I
don't like listening to is MTV and stuff like that. It just passes
right over me, I don't get anything out of it at all. I think it's
just bilge, really."

You don't want to keep track of it?

"Yeah, I try to keep track of it. It's very hilarious. I've got to
keep track of it - got nothin' to write about otherwise! (laughing)
And all this new acid music is very interesting, it's like total
bullshit. I watch all that stuff. You've gotta monitor everything."

I was a bit surprised about 'Idiot Joy Showland', I didn't think the
subject was important enough to write a song about. [it was about the
Manchester hype, Happy Mondays etc.]

"Nah, it's okay. It's a good little tune."

But you were annoyed about the whole thing?

"No, only comes across as that, it's just parody. [sounds a bit
irritated] You're trying to pin me down on it, but I'm not..."

You did say that you sort of hate what's going on in Manchester, at
the moment.

"Yeah, but only as it affects me, you see. I can't go out for a drink
now in peace, you know. ... What kind of stuff do you like? Do you
like the Cure and stuff like that?"

No, I don't, not at all. I think it's too depressing. That's what I've
always liked about The Fall, it's very uplifting in a way.

"Yeah, and people don't see that, that's what I try and get, a bit
positive. People don't see it, they always think The Fall are whining
about things. I don't wanna write about the environment and shit like
that. Depressions. I think it's a waste of time.
 We all get 'em, we all get depressed. It's more important to talk
about your environment socially, than... organically, you
know. (laughing) I think people who are into The Fall are stimulated
by it, that's the whole idea of it, stimulation."

In terms of commercial succes, do you think The Fall could really
reach a big audience?

"I keep trying, you know, it's quite hard."

You do set out for that.

"Well, yes and no, 'cause we don't do the hype, you see, that's the
problem. We don't do the strike forces and the plugging, and the
singles and the posters. We should try a bit, but I don't. Sometimes I
get so involved in what I'm doing, I forget about a ll that stuff. I
don't wanna leave it to anybody else really. But I mean, the only pain
in the arse is you're always struggling for money and shit like that,
you know. So is everybody else, that's my attitude. Everybody's
skint."

Don't you think there'll always be something in the music of The Fall
that alienates a lot of people?

"I don't know what it is, yeah... If there is, I don't know what it
is. Is it my voice, or... I don't know. It might be also people don't
like to hear the truth. They'd rather hear about... bananas in
Brazil. Or pollution. It's easy. They don't really wan na hear that
they're full of shit and computers are taking over, they don't really
wanna know that. Nobody likes it. I mean, I wouldn't like it either."

Could you describe the process of writing a song? Do you start with a
subject in mind?

"I never set out to write a song. It comes. One thing I've always
found, I could never remember how I wrote a song. Just comes, you
know. Touch wood."

Did you ever have periods when they didn't come?

"Oh, yeah. That's good though. It's your brain tellin' ya you haven't
got anything to say. I think a lot of people should take notice, you
know. You see, if I watch a lot of other people's work, I can see that
they've been forced to write a song. I don't like that. It's like
being forced to write another book, it's silly. You've got to have a
follow-up, blah-blah."

Do you get inspiration from a book you've read, or...

"From everywhere. Dreams, everywhere. But I just write snatches
down. Well, sometimes. I use all different methods."

In the case of 'Edinburgh Man', for instance, you didn't think, 'well,
I'd like to write a song about Edinburgh'?

"Nah. I heard this tune from Craig, worked words around that."

You've lived there for a year?

"I've lived there a year. I don't live there anymore, no."

What do you like about it so much?

"It's old-fashioned, you know. It's very much
eighteen-sixties. Dickensian. It's not the greatest place in the
world, you know, it's just that it was a good break for me when I went
there."

And you're back in Manchester now? How do you like it there?

"It's not very nice. A lot of gang wars going on there, drug
wars. Violence. It's bad. Like Rotterdam, though perhaps that's a bit
worse. I live in the northern part of town. I've noticed the
change. There's more students in the town, there's more violenc e,
there's more guns than there ever was. Gangsters. That was what 'Idiot
Joy Showland' was about, really, encouragement of idiots. I can live
with it, but it's different than it was."

Hasn't there always been violence?

"In Manchester, yeah. Manchester, in a way, is the cesspool of Europe,
always has been. That's why you get a lot of groups from
there. There's nothing to do, nothing to read, nowhere to go... Yet,
you know... It's the birthplace of the industrial revoluti on and all
that and yet it's fuckin'... It's ridiculous. It's culturally
dead. Always has been."

Was the band also a way to get out of that?

"No, I didn't want to get out of it, I like Manchester, it's good. In
a way, I like that about it. I don't like London, I don't like Paris
and places like that, 'cause you can't create. It's too much like an
art world, you know. Amsterdam is beautiful, but I wouldn't get any
work done here. Neither would the group, you know. They'd be going to
art galleries all day. And cafes."

If you look at the songs, how do you feel about them, are they close
to you? Do you feel a sort of affection for them?

"Songs? I don't consciously think about 'em, you see, I'm always
working on new stuff, so I don't really... But yeah, I like this new
LP, very close. Their meaning becomes apparent to me as well... I'm
just getting to the gist of what's sort of in me. Sounds stupid,
but..."

Are you getting better at it, at getting at the gist?

"Yeah, but it gets harder. It gets harder, I have to fuckin' hammer it
down. The bottom line is, you've gotta think... Really, what I should
do is sit down and think about a nice commercial record, or sit down
and think about a good rock song, but I can't. It just goes out me
head. I can't do it. (laughs)"

That's a good thing, too.

"Yeah, in a way it's a strength. I'd love to do it, but I
can't. (laughs) It's why we do cover versions now and then."

What was the reason why you started writing, was it getting things out
of your system?

"Yeah, yeah. And I do get an urge to do it, it's like in me bones."

Can you remember what the first thing was that you wrote, what it was
about?

"I remember writing three songs. I wrote 'Futures And Pasts', 'Oh!
Brother' and 'Repetition'. 'Oh! Brother' was older than when it came
out."

You've been asked before if you would want to write a book. Do you
think about that?

"No, not really. I might do it one day. I think I've got a few years
yet before I need to do that. I've got a distaste for the book world,
you know. I've got a distaste for the rock world, got a distaste
for... (cracks up in laughter)"

But it would be...

"Would be a good book, yeah.... In a way I'm quite sensitive, in a
way... These things are quite strange to me. It took me, like nine
years to come to grips with the rock world. I've been in ballet and
I've been in theatre and that and... I've learned to take me time
about these things. I could probably write a book in a week, but I
think 'why?' You know what I mean, why? Apart from the money and the
fame, I mean: why? And the standard of book writing at the moment is
not very good. I don't think so."

You could write a book to see if you could do it.

"But why? Nobody writes books. Nobody writes good books, anymore."

That would be a good reason too.

".... (silence)"

Do you still read a lot?

"Yeah, all the time. Addict."

What kind of things are you reading at the moment?

"I read history, Jim Thompson, magazines... But the standard of
writing has gone right down the drain. In Britain, anyway. Rock
journalism is appalling. Can't write sentences, spell... The books are
appalling, that are coming out in Britain. They're all a bout
murderers and psychos, and... Brett Ellis and brat-pack shit, it's
shit. You need somebody to sit down and write a fuckin' proper book,
that means everything to everybody, you know."

Do you like someone like Martin Amis?

"I like Martin Amis very much. But even he's gone... It's a sign of
the times, I think. People can't concentrate. It's all
film-orientated. And quick-buzz orientated."

I was wondering how you feel about playing live. Because a couple of
the times I saw you, you didn't seem to be enjoying yourself at all on
stage. But I spoke to Marcia [Schofield] last year, and she said it
wasn't true at all, you were enjoying yourself.

"I just get very tense before I go on, but once I'm on I'm okay."

You don't communicate with the audience much.

"No, I don't, no. I try and communicate with the group, which is very
hard."

Do you see playing live as part of the job?

"I like it, yeah. I don't like the perifery of it. I don't like the
things around it, like sitting around all day in a fuckin' hotel. It's
just really boring. But I do like playing live, it's important. It's
important for me. For me voice, and for me lyrics. You stumble across
things when you're playing live, that you can use in later
songs. That's why I don't like the way a lot of rock music is set up
very straight, you know, like, you go out, you do twelve songs, the
lights do this and all that, I think
 that's where a lot of groups fall down, that's really become boring
to me. That's just my taste."

But The Fall don't improvise a lot, though, do they?

"No, not really. Sometimes. But when they do, it's good."

How do you feel about the audience in general, do you think about
them?

"I try not to, it puts me off."

But it's not like you enjoy recording in a studio better than playing
live?

"I don't like studios at all, no. But I can work in them. Studios are
very technical nowadays, extremely computerized."

Would you want to work like someone like Lenny Kravitz, who uses old
equipment in the studio?

"What, like Vox amps and shit like that? Sometimes. The group is very
steadfast about that, we won't take sponsors and that, you know, or
Japanese equipment... (thinking about it) Is that how he does it, is
that how he gets his sound? Use old Jimi Hendrix
 Marshalls and the Voxes? Yeah, right, yeah, and old guitars... It
works, as well, it's good."

It seems he really searches the whole country for old equipment.

"Good for him, yeah. I'm not that interested in equipment at
all. (laughs) As long as it sounds okay... A lot of it is in the way
you mic things up, the way you use the microphone. It's interesting,
the more studios get computerized, the less you can actually do in a
way. You have to find a balance. I don't believe in going in and
recording an LP on something like that (points at my Walkman), for
instance, that's a stupid idea."

I'd like to ask you about a couple of songs from the new album. I like
'High Tension Line' a lot, can you tell me what that's about?

"Ehm... I just liked the music and I liked to do it like that, wanted
to make it bit of a classical-type ('Classical'-type?) sounding
song. Didn't go down to very well. But it's on the CD now, so let's
see what happens. It's good. The production was really good, I
thought, by Grant and me, it's good. It's a bit ahead of its time, I
think. Take a while to sink in. If you listen to it the first time it
sounds like the Rolling Stones or something, but if you listen to it
properly it's quite good. If you listen to it the first time it sounds
like any other Fall song, but if you listen to it properly it's
good. The arrangement is quite unique."

And the lyrics?

"It's just basically a statement, you know. I think there's a lot of,
like, information anxiety around in the world, people are trying to
come to grips with computers and DATs and TDKs and shit like
that. They can't really handle it, so they get into this
 anxious state. It's like an over-anxious state, I see it all the
time."

You say something like, 'It never used to concern me...'

"...but now it's getting me down, yeah."

It's been said a lot of songs from 'Extricate' that they were about
Brix.  'Rose', from 'Shiftwork', does seem to be about her.

"It does, doesn't it, everybody's thinking the same, yeah. Still, it's
not true. No, and on 'Extricate' too, none of them were about
that. Sorry to disappoint you, it's the truth. According to a lot of
critics, the last two LPs have been all about Brix. (laughs) It's
funny. I can see why people think that, but..."

Well, I didn't think it of the songs of 'Extricate', but with 'Rose' I
thought...

"'Rose' is a bit of it, half, maybe. It's got the wah-wah in it and
all that, yeah. I always find it funny, though, when people read these
things in it."

My first favourite of the album was 'You Haven't Found It Yet'.

"It's good, innit? I'm pleased with that, yeah. It's about being lost
on your own. And nobody ever finds anything, really, do they, in the
end? People are always looking for something they never get. It's good
to keep telling yourself that. It's like what
 the Fall policy is about. No, really, you know. That's why we keep
going. There hasn't been a perfect Fall LP yet. The last one was quite
good. It's a challenge, the challenge is to try and get it. I mean, if
you could get it straight away it would be a waste of time, wouldn't
it?"

Which Fall LP has been the nearest to what you wanted?

"The last one, it's always the same answer. (pause) I think one of the
closest is 'Perverted By Language', even though it's not very
listenable, it's pretty close. But 'Shiftwork' is very close."

Why 'Perverted By Language'?

"Dunno, it's just... lyrically to me it's near... It's not as near as
'Shiftwork', but it's... I don't like the LP myself, but I think it's
near. I always used to think 'Hex' was the nearest, but
eh... 'Perverted' and 'Shiftwork' are near. (laughs) Nearly
 there, nearly there!"

My favourite is still 'This Nation's Saving Grace', because of the
power it has..

"Mm. There's a lot on that there, yeah. If anything is wrong with
'This Nation's Saving Grace', it's that it's been imitated by
thousands of groups, like Sonic Youth and... They all tried to do
it. If there's anything wrong with it, it's that there's too much on
it. People can't really fathom it. You gotta take that into fuckin'
consideration. It's a horrible thing to say, but you have to. Like a
film, really, sometimes you have to watch a film eight, ten times
before you grasp it. 'This Nation's Saving Grace' is like
that. There's still stuff in there I can't fathom."

You talk about bands plaguarising The Fall a lot. Do you really think
that's true?

"It's more of a jokey thing, it's more of a contemptious thing. It
doesn't really bother me. I like to tease people, get 'em going and
all that. 'Cause basically a lot of these rock bands are just phonies,
full of shit. They should have proper jobs. They should get a
job. (laughs) No, they are. What amazes me about them is that they're
so short of ideas, I find it shocking. I'm not saying everybody should
be full of ideas, it's just that you'd think somebody like Sonic Youth
would have the capacity to work out their own scene. I think that's
what they're doin' now. It's a growth thing. But I'm always ahead of
myself, I can't fuckin' hold meself back. I'd used to get upset about
it, you turn on the TV and see some guy tryin' to be like you. It's
like, I'm beyond the point of anger about it, you know, it's like: why
don't you just think up something yourself. You know, that's what I
think: why can't you think up your own ideas, why do you have to wear
my shirt and my haircut and try and sing like me, I mean, come on, you
can do better. (laughs). You know what I mean?"

It is, in a way, flattering.

"That's what people say, I don't agree. I think it's sad for
them. It's like, if I ever get like that I'll seriously reconsider
myself. I've been like that, 'what can I do, I'll try and be like
this'... Then you stop and think, no, you shouldn't do that.  Don't do
anything. If you're short of ideas, stop. Stop for a bit."

Perhaps it's too easy nowadays, to play in a rock band.

"Very much. I think so, yeah."


by Sietse Meijer ) 1995